[00:00:00] Speaker A: Crowdfunding has unlocked a culture around pre ordering products where you are able to get access to capital before you make the thing.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to the B2B Breakthrough Podcast. We're here to bring you all the best knowledge, insights and strategies from e commerce experts, successful business owners and the
[email protected] that you'll need to grow your business and achieve your next big breakthrough. I'm your host, Sierra Christo.
Crowdfunding isn't just about money. It's about community, validation and smart.
Today we're breaking down how to do it right with Nathan Nalavenko, senior design and tech outreach lead at Kickstarter and a true expert on what makes for a successful campaign. We'll hear from him as well as a couple creators from the platform who have achieved a lot more than financing through Kickstarter. Nathan, welcome to B2B Breakthrough.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: Hey Sierra, nice to be here. Yeah, thanks for having me. And yeah, looking forward to chatting more today.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Yeah, we're really happy to have you here. Kickstarter is our exclusive crowdfunding platform, partnering with us for our Co Create pitch competition at Co Create this year in in Las Vegas. So really wanted to connect with you, talk a little bit about how the platform works in the world of product creation. So I think it would be a really great place to start by just giving us a little Kickstarter 101. What is the platform and why are folks flocking to it?
[00:01:18] Speaker A: So Kickstarter is the largest crowdfunding platform. We do rewards based crowdfunding. So this means that it's not charity where you're just donating to a project and not getting anything in return.
It's not equity crowdfunding where you're also pledging to a project, but also getting some of the equity of the project. The creator maintains full control of the project, its audience, all of the things.
So yeah, we found that it's the best way to bring products to market. And in the design and technology categories, that's kind of the breadth of all of the physical products of the world. And so we get to see a lot of different cool stuff from consumer electronics to apparel to bags to footwear, everyday carry items, all kinds of things. And, you know, there really isn't a better way to go to market, we think, than, you know, crowdfunding through Kickstarter.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: I tend to agree.
I mentioned earlier we've heard from a couple of creators who have used the platform in the past and have shared some really positive experiences. And I want to throw it over to one of them. Now, Christian Reed, he's the founder behind Recon Tools and he shared a little bit with us about his experience and what made it such a successful campaign. So I want to throw it over to Christian real quick.
[00:02:35] Speaker C: Our original intention when we launched in 2020 was a, to launch on Kickstarter and B, that it would really be treated as a side project. You know, let's see how it does and you know, we'll go from there. Maybe it'll be a cool little side hustle to diversify with work. And then, you know, 2020 was the year of the COVID pandemic. So all sorts of craziness going on and then turned out, I guess more clear in retrospect that the construction DIY people were making things at home. So it turned out to be a great time to launch a Kickstarter campaign. So we hit the go button on June 16th of 2020 and then $1.2 million later closed out about 45 days. And then the conversation becomes a lot different from side project to hey, what if we turn this into a full time company and see what else we could do as an organization versus just something we work on as a side hustle outside of work hours with it.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: So Christian had a really successful campaign with his project and he, he started it as a side hustle. And I think we see that in the Alibaba.com world. We hear a lot of entrepreneurs say that it started as a side and they're able to create something really lasting out of it. So, you know, after that conversation with Christian and hearing that he's totally self sustained now, how do you continue creating momentum for your brand coming out of a campaign like that?
[00:03:46] Speaker A: Well, Christian didn't just luck into it, but luck was involved certainly in any success story. But yeah, I think it's really amazing to see people that start to test the market. I'll say, you know, we talk a lot about product market fit and Kickstarter is a live test of product market fit. It's where rubber meets the road. It's not just asking folks, you know, would you want this thing if I gave it to you for X number of dollars? And through crowdfunding, you're getting that live support and also the kind of live feedback from users. So I think whenever you run a campaign, especially if you're as successful as Christian, it's really hard to say, oh, I'm not going to like continue working on this as hard as I can. Like, you know, I'm going to leave, leave my full time Job and work on this side. Hustle that now is now is the real deal, right? Like you have hundreds or thousands of people that are excited about what you're doing and you need to figure it out. And it's a lot of figuring things out. It is in on the product side, but also on the marketing business. All of these things need to kind of come together to maintain and continue success.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: And you mentioned an interesting thing there. You know, the business side of it, beyond the funding, how to find out how to market it appropriately and learning through the experience.
So as someone like Christian or an aspiring Kickstarter creator is coming to the table here, how can you kind of review the data, review the information, feedback from your audience to really maximize your exposure, to build on your own organic reach? How do you take a Kickstarter campaign and make it work for you from a marketing perspective?
[00:05:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question. And Kickstarter is a very pure connection to your audience.
You're getting comments and feedback and having a conversation with them on the platform. And many of them are also creators or inventors or that they're kind of working on products themselves and testing them and reviewing them. And so I think that is a very kind of honest and open conversation that's happening on Kickstarter. And you kind of learn from those conversations, okay, what are the most important details that I need to share, what is really resonating with that audience and then kind of distill that down into the key messaging and talking points that you might go and kind of unlock the broader market and category and figure out who are the types of people that this is resonating with. Because you're going to have unexpected results in that, you know, you may be making your project for one person and actually find out that this whole other group of people is really excited about what you're doing. And you know, those are the types of things as you're going to market that you can kind of. Okay, I didn't even think about that. But you know, these people are super excited. How do I go out? Where do I reach them in the world? Kind of what, through what channels, but also kind of what is the story that I'm telling them. And when those two things meet and then you know that that is success in growth and marketing. And so, yeah, I think Kickstarter is one form of the story that you're telling and you can tell it in a very long form context. But as you start to go out into the world, grow your business into other markets, you need to have the kind of very clear, distilled message because people aren't going to have as much patience as they might on Kickstarter.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an interesting point. You know, it's funny, in our last episode we spoke with a creator from our network, Jeff Lauber from marmls, and he spoke a little bit about how he created this magnetic tactile art toy that's very modular for kids, but it ended up being a fidget toy for a lot of adults on their desks and just in their lives to help with anxiety and things like that. So there's always this unexpected audience. I'm curious to hear your perspective on what the backer audience really looks like, because it sounds like they have. They have a different level of enthusiasm, a different perspective than you may be factoring in when you think about who you're making this product for. So what kind of unifying characteristics would you assign to the backer community?
[00:07:54] Speaker A: It is a beautifully diverse set of niches.
There are people that are passionate about everything and working a Kickstarter that is reinforced every day.
You see a product that is so specific that this person created it for themselves to solve their own problem. But then you see all of these many others that maybe had that same problem or that they're just super excited that you're creating this.
You know, that plays out in every direction all of the time. So I think the community themselves, like the kind of unifying factors are that they are really passionate, they are willing to support and excited to support creators that are doing new things. Typically, a project is fulfilled, AKA the product is shipped to somebody. Months is very normal. It can be as short as weeks. But you know, it is not.
You're getting it tomorrow. Kind of E commerce that more and more consumers may expect. This community has really kind of doubled down on. We want the newest. We will get it at an exclusive price. But really why we're doing this is that we want to bring these things to life. You know, we want to support these creators to carry out their visions. And what it creates is a platform of unique new things that maybe can't come to market in other, more traditional ways.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: What would you say the conversion rate is for backers who become long term customers for these brands? I mean, I imagine coming in on the ground floor, they're getting that first batch. Are they buying again? Are they loyal customers to the brand after the campaign?
[00:09:34] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. And I think it really depends on how good of a job you did in that.
Did you answer all of their questions along the way. Customer service is huge, transparency is huge and, you know, delays happen.
This is product development and there are challenges there, there are challenges with shipping and logistics. There are any number of reasons why things might get delayed and really it comes down to how you handle that situation. How do you communicate to backers throughout? Do you give them a good deal? We've seen really great communities be built around projects that, or maybe a product to start. Then they became kind of had a greater vision and kind of brand ethos and values. And then there are full communities that, you know, maybe live on Discord or Facebook groups or other places that there's kind of rich conversation happening that's facilitated by that brand, started by the initial backers on Kickstarter. But yeah, the, the people that are there are. They're passionate about what you're doing. They're. They're your true fans. And, you know, hopefully if you do everything right, you're going to bring them along for the rest of the ride.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: So it's about connecting with them off platform as well as just responding to their tangible feedback.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: Of course. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot happening in the, okay, I'm launching the project and I'm updating you until you get, get your thing that you, that you backed and you know that all is happening kind of on platform but also off and. But then, yeah, you're moving on to whatever your kind of ongoing commerce is.
As also to say that we love it and I think backers love it too, when creators come back and launch additional products on Kickstarter and there's lots of great ways to re engage folks and incentivize them to support their next thing as well.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: I want to come back to the conversation about reintroducing a new product or expanding your line on Kickstarter. But before we do that, you teed me up nicely for our next, our next case study here. Hannah is the founder of nanu, creating really beautiful offline analog products timepieces. And she really had this beautiful anecdote to share about the way that her backer community supported her, not only in the design and quality, but really reinforcing the value of the product itself. So I want to throw it to Hannah real quick to react to that. Kickstarter backers are incredible for that because they're very engaged audience and they're also very opinionated. After we sent out arc, we actually got a bunch of backers messaged us after they received the product and said, this is like nothing I'VE ever owned in the past couple of decades. It's built better than anything I've felt in a long time. And you guys need to, you guys probably should sell it for more because we know that this is really high quality, which is really helpful because as a founder, you always see the imperfections in your product. And our backers are in the background shouting like, this is a great product. You need to increase your prices.
So, I mean, to hear from your consumer, your customer, that they'd spend more money on your product, that's not something that I think a lot of business owners are accustomed to engaging with. But when we're talking about backers, they got this early in, they got this deal up front. So how. How do you see backers contributing to the business model of these brands as well?
[00:13:00] Speaker A: I mean, I can't really think of another place on the Internet where someone would ask for you to charge more for what you're getting.
And. But yeah, is a testament to the unique kind of scenario that's playing out here. And they are invested, ultimately, you know, they are. They want to see you do well. They, again, are experts in the product categories and they're going to give you honest feedback, even if it may be not in their best interest.
And so, yeah, I think that's kind of a beautiful and somewhat rare exchange. I don't think that's. Everyone's commenting, you should charge more for this. But I think what Hannah's doing at Nanu is making really quality, high design pieces. And the feedback that she's getting there is don't cheapen this, don't design this down and water it down to a price point.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Yeah, and I was, I was having that conversation with her too, actually. You know, the quality conversation where she originally was, was in the prototyping phase, playing with Plexiglas as, as the watch cover. I believe this is the counter. But you know how her audience, to your point is saying, you know, we want premium, we want premium materials. This is a product that matters to us. And so it brings you to this place where you get to know your audience a little bit more and are able to really, really workshop it, understand the aesthetic value for some folks. And in this instance specifically, we're talking about backers who are requesting a change, who are requesting a premium upgrade to the products.
And we are learning about them in the process, and they're comfortable with the product changing from what they've seen originally. Now, that's another element that we see a lot on the Alibaba.com side of things, where products just naturally evolve in those early stages of production. We've talked to countless people who have signed on with a manufacturer and found out that they have this whole other set of capabilities that actually helps them expand their product line and, or consider a material change. All of these things that kind of impact the end product that ends up on shelves. So when we're talking about changes that aren't solicited, that aren't, that aren't prompted by your audience, how can you ensure that your audience and your backers are, are going to be comfortable with what they end up receiving, knowing that the product that they backed in the first place Was maybe a 3D printed prototype? So how do you manage those expectations along the journey?
[00:15:28] Speaker A: Communication is the key here. And almost all levels of success on Kickstarter is being transparent and being really clear about, you know, this is where I'm at right now. This is the form of the prototype, this is what to expect whenever this is fully in production and you receive your thing. So I think that's one level of it is just kind of being very clear about, okay, this is the stage that we're at. These are the next steps. This is how much more refined this will be.
As much as you can predict things that will change over, communicate that. And hopefully the changes aren't fully unsolicited. I think in the best case scenario, this is feedback coming from the community where you're making improvements. I think ultimately, if you're getting something of equal or greater value in the end, and some things are different, sure. But we have really good reasons and we've told you very clearly why then that's a much easier situation to manage with someone than we had to make all of these concessions as we started to get deeper into product development and production. And so, yeah, I think doing your homework, doing as much as you can upfront, working with a factory or, or your production partners earlier in the process and getting them involved in the design process to make sure that whatever you're kind of projecting that your product is possible and it's feasible to make, it's feasible to make at a price point. And the more that you can do that up front, hopefully it will prevent these types of things where you're not getting what you expected.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: So, I mean, clear communication is a great rule of thumb in all things.
But I think this, to your point, it's a lot easier to communicate when it's an optimization that you feel like you're bringing an added value to your backers. I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit here to see if you have any examples that you can call to mind when we're facing these global supply chain challenges that we've seen in the last year, facing tariffs that we didn't see coming and then rearranging our plans when there's a pause and things like that. All of these things are inevitable and are impacting product creators and entrepreneurs across the U.S. how do you manage something that is a little bit out of your hands that is going to challenge your very production, your very means of production?
Have you seen any cases on Kickstarter in the last year that really struggled with a negative impact that the economy on a broad scale has had on their business?
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Tariffs is a word that nobody wants to talk about this year especially and it has affected many, many creators on Kickstarter and in the broader e commerce landscape. And it's still a live situation, right? Like we're still hearing headlines and reacting to things changing by country and region. So I think everyone is still feeling this out.
The planning timelines for products coming to market is definitely on the longer side of months to years. So you know, whenever you have these kind of more macro economic changes that are happening in between, you're, you're figuring out what should I tell my customers, what do I know, what don't I know. And you know, again, I think it's just communicating and being transparent about that. An example that comes to mind where I think this was done really well is Peak Design. Who you know, they're a 15 time creator on Kickstarter. You know, definitely a major success story that makes all kinds of wonderful outdoor and photography products. And they just launched a series of new products this year, from outdoor bags to new tripod, but specifically their rolling luggage happened. Their campaign was live whenever big tariff news was dropping in the spring and the first thing they did was tell everyone that we're not.
The price you backed at will not be affected.
We will absorb the tariffs, whatever they may be in that time. They're shipping later in the fall and that was super reassuring to hear from a creator and we have your back and we're not getting this money. The government is getting this money. It's not going to us being clear about that part of it. But also that hey, we've made a promise to you. We've kept our promises for all of these years and we're planning to continue doing that.
[00:20:09] Speaker B: I'm not even a backer in this situation and I'm sitting here Feeling reassured by the anecdote?
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I want to take us back real quick to more 101. I realized that we didn't really talk about the real challenge that Kickstarter alleviates and that is this ever present fear of how am I going to raise capital to launch my business.
So can you talk to me a little bit about what challenges you've seen creators face coming into a campaign and how does this completely change the game for them? What are we fixing?
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Making software is relatively cheap and easy. Making physical things takes time and money. So I think that's why we've seen all of the kind of categories in design and technology really flourish on Kickstarter is because they are capital intensive, they do have minimum order quantities, they do need to be produced. They're usually produced not where you live though they can be. And so these just kind of facts about these types of businesses kind of require different go to market approaches than other types of businesses. And crowdfunding has unlocked kind of a culture around pre ordering products where you are able to get access to capital before you make the thing. Now it requires a good bit of homework on your part and as we were talking about from managing kind of production and supply chain changes, the more you can do up front and the more you can kind of answer some of those questions that you eventually have to answer that hopefully gives backers more and more trust and transparency into what you're building and how you're going to make it. That can unlock the levels of capital that you'll need to bring this to life. So I think in the best case scenario, in the example of Christian recon, they raised $1.2 million. They didn't need to take any other investment after that and that allowed them to proceed and unlock the next phase of their business. Now not every project is as lucky, I'll say, and not every project needs to raise that amount of capital in order to make it Go. But you need to know for what you're building, what does it cost? What is the minimum order? Those types of key questions start to frame what is my goal for this? And really, I think from there you just need to align your marketing strategy and making sure you're reaching the audience that you need in order to reach that goal. And, you know, I think that's at the end of the day, what we're trying to do is make sure that there's enough, enough folks that are there to back your project in order for it to be successful.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And some of that strategy beyond Kickstarter is figuring out, you know, where, where can I continue these sales?
So speaking broadly, I know we spoke to Christian about his distribution plan and same thing with Hannah. You know, she's, she's selling on Etsy, she's selling on their own e commerce website.
So where do you see these successful campaigns? Living in the world post Kickstarter?
[00:24:04] Speaker A: A little bit everywhere. Yeah, I think director consumer is kind of maybe the standard answer of that. Unowned e commerce shop is very typically where something will live just after Kickstarter. I think from there, retail is also an option depending on your product type.
Just given the kind of the uniqueness of Kickstarter products, like they can be in kind of specialty retail design stores, things like that.
In the example again of peak design, they have their own stores in major cities around the world. So I think this happens at different scales and it kind of depends on your level of success. But yeah, kind of all of the breadth of e commerce is kind of immediately available and then you kind of see what makes sense for it us in the growth of our business, of what other channels we want to get into.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: That's where we're sending these products that have already graduated, so to speak, through the Kickstarter system. Now when we talk about expanding these businesses, you mentioned earlier that these folks are coming back and launching second products and accessories, expansion packs, anything to really continue to build out this universe around their brand. How are they learning from round one and how do you make sure that you have as successful a second round, you know, and you're not falling into some kind of sophomore slump with your Kickstarter journey. What are some of those skills and learnings that they're bringing into round two?
[00:25:38] Speaker A: You're definitely going to learn something from your first rodeo on Kickstarter. You're always going to take something away even if you executed it very well. So probably a lot of those learnings are going to be around communication and figuring out how to do it better the next time, how to anticipate questions that, you know, backers had during your first run and hopefully you're just in general in a better spot as far as being able to answer questions around how are we making this? What is the timeline for that? You know, I think with follow on campaigns there's just more trust. There's, you know, at least one case study of you doing this and, you know, accomplishing what you set out to do.
So yeah, I think you, you get more trust baked in to follow on. But then I think what it does is creates more pressure on the quality of the product and how unique it is. And it's hard to create a completely new thing that is as exciting as the first thing that you made.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: And you can continue building on the same. You still have contact with your backers from the first round, is that right? Or you're still able to build on that community?
[00:26:46] Speaker A: Of course, yeah. And updating and direct messaging and of course emailing and all of the things to your existing, existing audience and bringing them along for the ride, giving them exclusive deals in the process as well to thank them for supporting you from the beginning. I think those are all, yes, that's all sound strategy. But yeah, you also want to see maybe your next product does speak to a slightly different audience or completely new ones. And so, yeah, there's always a kind of process of testing and validating that. These are the folks that are going to be really excited about this. Or do I need to go and do some more work out off platform and finding those people?
[00:27:27] Speaker B: So what are some of the big pitfalls you find creators fall into in this process, in that first round?
[00:27:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest one is what I'll call like, if you build it, they will come.
And what I mean by this is that you've done no marketing, you've built no audience before you come to Kickstarter and kind of expect all of your marketing to just happen on platform. Certainly we have millions of people in our backer community, but they may not see your project because there's no kind of momentum for it. There are thousands of projects live on Kickstarter at any one time.
Just like on other platforms, if you're not on the front of people's feeds, then you're not going to be seen by as many folks. So really developing that audience and figuring out who this resonates with and starting to grow that. But before you launch, there's no secret that campaigns that are raising 6, 7 figures on Kickstarter. They're doing a lot of this before they launch. Also equally as important is figuring out what the story is, you're telling what the content is and testing that with the audience.
Your headlines and creative, your visuals, photo, video, all of that.
Some is going to land better than others. And if you know that and you've tested that in small ways, then you can really scale that up.
What resonates earlier. So yeah, I think there's a few different levels of tests to do and all of that.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: And part of that is having these working prototypes or maybe not even a working prototype, but just a visual model to really a rendering of some sort to bring it to life and feel exciting to backers. So how does something that's not actually working yet get the backing is how do you really convince them that you have a plan in place and this is going to function by the time you get your hands on it?
[00:29:27] Speaker A: So a lot to unpack here. What you cannot do is just bring a render to Kickstarter and say, look at this great thing, don't you want it? There does need to be an unedited video of your prototype and what its current functionality is, is a requirement. So knowing that this may not be the finished thing, but you just need to be very clear about where you are in that process and that's the transpar that we're promoting as a platform so that you're not kind of just showing beauty models of something and have no idea how it's going to work inside.
And so yeah, I think again in other forms of the more homework you do, the further you can go along in product development and multiple rounds of prototyping.
Ideally you can have a looks like, works like prototype that, that you can shoot all of your content with and it's all very seamless and believable versus having something that's maybe like a stand in. But then imagine if it did what this other prototype did is, you know, that's a little bit earlier on in the product development cycle. So, you know, I think backers know, I think at the end of the day is like, you know, you can tell if something is real or not and how far along and advanced it is.
And even the best attempts to hide this, people have a sense for it and are smart to that process. So yeah, I think just doing what you can in order to bring that product as far along as possible.
But yeah, eventually you're going to bump up against. I need funding to kind of take this to the next phase. And I think that's kind of all the magic of being an entrepreneur is there's lots of creative solutions that you need to do to get there.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And so this is a really, you know, launching on Kickstarter is a massive milestone then for a business to say, like, I finally have a product that is, you know, like you said, looks like works like I finally have something that, you know, I've pushed this to the level where I have an audience who cares.
So it's something to be celebrated. Even launching your Kickstarter campaign.
[00:31:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, this is the biggest product showcase. Right. It's like when you certainly are sharing this with folks before, but it's the big moment and your big public launch whenever you're going to market. So it's very exciting. It's also nerve wracking and, you know, takes a lot of time and attention and responding. You know, as soon as you go live, like you're going to get all of these comments from backers and realize the questions that they have that you wish you had answered before and, you know, all of these things is, yeah, you kind of have to gear up for it.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: It's incredible to really, like we mentioned right from the top, how to validate a product, how to validate that you're in the right space with the right people. This is absolutely the avenue to go down to get to that result.
So, you know, for someone who's approaching that readiness to launch on Kickstarter, I want to talk a little bit about what those resources are that they can reference to make sure that they've ticked all the boxes to feel really ready. Do you have any resources available to entrepreneurs to kind of do that? Cursory check. Is it time?
[00:32:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Kickstarter.com, we have a learning lab center and lots of help articles for this. We have resources that maybe we can link to here in the notes as well. There's lots of information out there on Kickstarter. I also say there's lots of misinformation as well. So. So yeah, we have some great content that you can trust, but there are also many trusted kind of agency partners out there that are sharing tools and tricks as well. And so looking at partners that have done this in the past and have had a lot of success, it's good to learn from different folks that have taken different strategies and go to market. And I would look to the ecosystem, make sure you validate who you're learning from. But yeah, there's a lot out there.
[00:33:32] Speaker B: Well, and if nothing else they have this podcast. So we've got some great information here and we're going to be sharing a lot more at Co Create as well. We'll be having a panel with some of these creators like Christian and Hannah. In fact, Christian and Hannah will be with us at Co Create, so we're really excited to learn more about their journeys as well. We'll make sure that you all have access to all of the links that we've talked about to make sure that you have all of the information at your fingertips to start a campaign of your own on Kickstarter. In the meantime, Nathan, where can we find you? Where can we find all of these resources? Just let's, let's lay them out verbally real quick.
[00:34:04] Speaker A: I'm Nathan DeLavenko on LinkedIn. It's probably best place to connect with me and yeah, happy to talk with you more. If you are planning to launch a project with us, that's awesome.
[00:34:14] Speaker B: I hope that we see a bunch more loaded onto Kickstarter in the next couple months. For anyone interested in joining us at Co Create, you can get a discount on tickets up to 20% by going to alibabaco create.com and using code Breakthrough. So thank you for listening to the podcast. Nathan, thank you for joining and talking through some of these hacks with us today. It's been a pleasure.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: Thanks so much, Sierra. It's been great.
[00:34:37] Speaker B: B2B Breakthrough is produced by Alibaba.com to find out how Alibaba.com is empowering its customers with the tools, services and resources they need to grow their business. Then visit Alibaba.com and then make sure to search for B2B Breakthrough on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you find your podcasts. Make sure to follow us so you don't miss future episodes. On behalf of the team
[email protected] thanks for listening.
